http://www.descendantsofdraenor.com/listmembers.php
LIES! SLANDER AND LIES!
In print, it’s Libel.
/filter=Druid Hmm no Dalans.
/filter=Rogue Hmm no Cheeseus.
Those pixels and numbers don’t even exist anymore
The defense resets.
30 Cheeseus Rogue 11.92 0 01/21/11 0 % (0)
Speak for yourself, my friend.
Cheeseus had me at yoloswag
No not really just providing context for this:
You said you had like 200+ DKP and the record/log you posted showed like 11.something, so how’s that the same, moreover how’s that matter? What’s cute is how you think I deleted it, haha.
Nobody’s deleting shit.
Many characters are hidden on the DKP listing due to going idle.
Scroll all the way to the bottom, look for the link in the lower right-hand corner, and click “Show All”.
Awe, you think I deleted it. How adorable 
You claimed that we were not longer in the system, but I found myself. It’s ok, we can’t all be right all the time.
Edit: The word “can’t” adds new meaning to my post!
From the other thread:
How does 11.92 = massive amounts of unused DKP? What relevant post did I delete? Are you high?
Forgoing that nonsense, you’re commenting about not being able to use imaginary points that gauge participation (read: not currency) so you could gain an item in a game you haven’t played in 3-4 years? Sorry you were so butthurt about it but you should probably move on.
Sadly I could only find DKP from Cata. But my link was referencing you saying we no longer exist in the system when clearly I do. It’s ok, I cam back just enough to still be around, my friend.
So showing up and killing something and being given a currency with which to acquire items is not a currency. Got you.
I don’t care about the items, nor the CURRENCY, I care about people trying to take the moral high road and shit on other loot distribution systems (like LC) where the argument is “LC is easily corruptible, unlike DKP, which is fair for all” when stipulations which are not clearly identified anywhere are in play, meaning that there isn’t real transparency about what you can and cannot do with your DKP.
So I’m sorry you can’t see a currency for what it is, but it’s ok. You’re only a yellow mustang, so we can’t expect much from you.
I checked with Shawn and to be perfectly accurate the old DKP system is still there and yes you have lots and lots of DKP. The point still remains: it is a system no longer in use, that would be used to distribute items that have no meaning (Wrath items would be horribly outdated by now as was the case with Vanilla items in TBC and TBC items in Wrath), for a character you no longer play. That was my meaning about the pixels and numbers not existing/mattering, enjoy your empty victory of “oh the numbers are still there.”
I’m clearly not going to change your mind about the DKP = or =/= a currency however a few things to note about DKP:
- It is not transferable and has no value to anyone other than you.
- It has no value outside the system, IE it cannot be traded for gold or other items.
- It has no value outside the guild, IE it is not recognized by other guilds, the game or by Blizzard.
- It has no value outside of the game, you can’t buy anything with it.
That’s a pretty limited currency if you choose to call it as such. Keeping that in mind and then noting that we used DKP as a means to gauge participation and assign loot for the betterment of the guild as a whole and to further progression…how does assigning loot to a character that will no longer be in the system, in the guild or even in the game itself have any basis other than personal satisfaction? I don’t know if you recall or not but it was clear that people interested in raiding only to get better loot for themselves were pretty heavily chastised and usually didn’t last very long.
Oh and loot council is a terrible system because people are terrible. No matter how magnanimous or charitable a person you think you can be, someone will always perceive the personal assignment of loot as a slight if they go too long being passed over for consideration. There is too much psychology involved in having a non-automated system work in a guild the size of ours.
Not stipulated? Officer discretion was always a noted contingency and thankfully it only needed to be used a handful of times when people couldn’t bow to common sense or there was a flaw in the system. If it wasn’t clear enough already Cheese, giving you an item on an character you were no longer going to play is a stupid idea and benefits nobody but you.
Dalans, again, you sound mad. Hug offer still open, my friend.
http://forums.descendantsofdraenor.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15329
^^ Please find me “Officer discretion was always a noted contingency and thankfully it only needed to be used a handful of times when people couldn’t bow to common sense or there was a flaw in the system”. This way we can be on the same page for our discussion.
Just because you’re bad at people doesn’t make the system bad. What is bad is not having transparency, which seems to be your issue with LC. Other cases of that include, but are not limited to, not letting someone use the currency which they earned. This is as retarded, if not more so for how hypocritical it is, for wasting loot.
I understood Shawn when he said “Hey please don’t bid on anything now that you’re on your way out”, but it doesn’t make him asking it any better.
Oh, and since you’re saying “I don’t know if you recall or not but it was clear that people interested in raiding only to get better loot for themselves were pretty heavily chastised and usually didn’t last very long.” Please provide some specific examples. Since it’s so clear, shouldn’t be an issue.
In Vanilla, this was one of the “unwritten” rules the officership used to keep folks like Khaevil and Bojax in-line; players who traditionally bid for their own needs, rather than to grow the strength of the raid as a whole. That was always the intention…to grow the overall strength of the raid. Stronger raiders = better progression. It was significant in Vanilla because you would find people raiding for selfish reasons, such as PvP, or against their primary raiding spec (respectively).
As time went on, we took the stands of educating players into making informed decisions, rather than write an actual hard-and-fast rule of “we’ll intervene if we deem it necessary”. I always felt that this was a cop-out, a sort of dangling loose end tying the system back to something much more akin to loot council. Then, as we saw individual players making poor decisions (eg. @Omaric switching to DPS, 1st rounding DPS trinkets) I directed the officers to take people aside, and review the decision with them, in the hopes of bringing some clarity to the situation. As opposed to flat-out saying “Uh, yeah that is a stupid fucking idiodic bid and you’re not making it.”
I realize different people have different stances on this, which is why I’m encouraging discussion of it. I know my reasons, but I’d like to hear real justifications from the other side of the argument.
Khaevil
Bojax
Azraella
Trine
Crasian
Omaric
Sentra
Tehsampson
…to name a few, just off the top of my head.
Just have to say, I’m laughing quite hard as to how this turned out.
+1 dalans for laying it to thems uppity canadians!
This has been an awesome read, would do it again.
Removing spoilers since it is apparently easy to forget that the blog readers scan these boards now.
So people are terrible, but expected to have common sense and not exploit (willingly or otherwise) flaws. This doesn’t seem contradictory at all!
I want to make one thing clear: I’m not making an argument that Loot Council is superior to DKP. I’m making the argument that both can be viable if appropriately applied, and expectations made clear from the beginning.
So, Loot Council can be exploited like someone said “when they’re angry or for personal gains” (not going to find source, only have lunch time to type this up), and this can be countered by the clearly defined and expected rules of DKP, but then you have Hanzo say “unwritten rules”, and that shit goes right out the door.
No where does it say that you are supposed to be interested in the raid only to help the raid progress (if you can find something that specifically says this please feel free to correct me), so people will raid for whatever reasons they feel like it. For some, it is just for loot. Is it wrong for you to out them for this when there’s nothing saying that they cannot do this? Yes it is. There is a rigid set of rules that was set up so no one’s personal opinion may sway it, but someone in command doesn’t agree with someone in raid’s reason to be there, so they go around the rules and stop that person.
From personal experience, I was saddened and felt betrayed by @Hanzo when he told me I could not use my DKP. We were given 100 to start, so anything above was what I had earned for my efforts, and was now being denied from using. As a leader and looking at it from a team, I can understand his point, but as a person, with no rules against it, I wasn’t happy. Had we been in a Loot Council and he had said “Cheese, I understand you’ve committed a lot to this group, but now that you’re almost done we need this stuff for the new people” I would have been in a different state of mind.
In either case, the key is transparency. It’s a lot more difficult for a loot council to be corrupted or have favorites if after every raid what items were given to who and for what reasons, and these logs made public. Anyone could then scrutinize the lists and it would go from there (either kick the council, mutiny, leave guild, etc).
Let’s assume the following:
Dalans, bear extraordinaire, has been with DoD for years. Cheeseus, dashing sexy lady’s man, is clearly full of himself, and a rogue. And also it’s his first week in raid.
Boss dies, and a tier chest token, applicable for druids and rogues drops. Only Dalans and Cheeseus need it. Dalans also has 3/4 pieces of gear, and the 4 pc bonus would be a huge boon the guild.
DKP: Dalans has unfortunately been spending his DKP regularly, and has only 49 DKP. As Cheeseus just started he had 50. Since Dalans can’t first round bid (50 min), they both bid and Cheese wins. Do you consider this fair? Does it help the raid as a whole?
LC: The loot council reviews the drop. Cheese is new, and Dalans has had a lot of drops in the recent past, but overall, this piece would help the raid team progress. The LC states: “Cheese, we appreciate you coming out and helping us. Despite the fact that Dalans has recently received quite a few upgrades, overall this piece will help the guild progress better. The next time a drop occurs where you are applicable, we will remember the fact we chose someone else over you”. Do you consider this fair? Does this help the raid as a whole?
Now, if my [sarcasmfont]totally unbiased example[/sarcasmfont] doesn’t show you that they both can be equal, I don’t know what will.
In the end, I would just like to reiterate that one isn’t better than the other, as long as you’re consistent in how you deal with things, and are transparent in how and why things are implemented.
Also, thanks for editing my post, and trying to ban me. I knew if I didn’t have a solid argument, I would try and silence those who do, too. <3
Nope not mad just trying to get the point across.
Officer discretion wasn’t recorded or if it was it was early on in the MC/BWL days when we had the more flawed priced system and it has been purged by the forums. No I don’t have specific examples for the galactic record but there have been many times when we had to stop the raid ala Loot Council and either decide for someone or take them aside and ask them if they were really sure if they wanted to loot things; a few that come to mind:
Silversniper (or maybe Ultimate) that was looting a dagger from Vael over a rogue
Bojax looting a DPS trinket (or other melee item) ahead of a rogue
Forcing Khaevil to loot mage class bracers even though he vowed defiantly that he would never use them
Cernunnus looted mace off of Nef ahead of Kerulak even though he had equal healing power
I looted AQ staff token ahead of Kerulak even though I had the same Nef mace
Previously mentioned in the blog, the paladin looting mail healing items ahead of shamans
Yes it is absolutely contradictory because people are unreliable even when designated to be part of a Loot Council and their job is outlined as “be unbiased and distribute loot evenly.” The point is to try and eliminate the variables and one huge variable is the human factor.
Playing only for loot and looking to game the system ‘according to the rules’ is akin to poor sportsmanship. I guess we find out how well that works out in future blog posts…
You’re welcome for the post edit and I’ll continue to do so when being insulted directly, sarcasm or not which had nothing to do with abuse of admin powers to stack a perceived weak argument.
And I’ll continue to point out people for being hypocritical, and trying to abuse their admin powers, to try and stack their perceived weak argument. Looks like that abuse got you far, eh?
So in the perfect DKP system, where things are black and white, you needed to rely on asking people to not use what they were given, ala Loot Council style. Which is why Loot Council is such a terrible idea. Why didn’t you say so from the start?
So thanks for the agreement, champ!
Edit: Actually, you trying to hide your terrible argument behind your mod privileges is exactly the same problem that most people, like yourself, have with Loot Council. That is to say the wrong people are given powers and are not moderated accordingly, nor are they transparent in their actions, and they do not follow the example they enforce on others. So I guess you’re right, if there was a Loot Council and someone like you were in charge of it, it wouldn’t be beneficial for anyone.
That’s it you solved the mystery, hypocritical admin abusing powers, been my MO from day one. I’d rather that than being hung up on virtual loot from 4+ years ago.
This is where I have one of my RL friends come on the board and drop the c-bomb and pretend like its a “joke” and were all friends? No, because I’m better than that, champ.
When you are back running your own guild, with more than 10 people you know personally, you let me know how that Loot Council works out.